I am simply saying that using Descartes's method I am now allowed to doubt my observation. It might very well be. Is my argument against Descartes's "I think, therefore I am", logically sound? https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/descartes-epistemology/#2, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cogito_ergo_sum#Discourse_on_the_Method. Perhaps you are actually an alien octopus creature dreaming. The thought happened in his mind, as per his observation. The failing behind the cogito is common to all attempts to derive something out of nothing. There is NO logic involved at all. He says, Now that I have convinced myself that there is nothing in the world no sky, no earth, no minds, no bodies does it follow that I dont exist either? Dealing with hard questions during a software developer interview. Here is an argument that is similar to an argument that Descartes famously advanced: (1) I think. In an earlier work, the Discourse on Method, Descartes expresses this intuition in the dictum I think, therefore I am; but because therefore suggests that the intuition is an argumentthough it is notin the Meditations on First Philosophy he says merely, I think, I am (cogito, sum). So you agree that Descartes argument is flawed? This means there is no logical reason to doubt your ability to doubt. Now, comes my argument. the acorn-oak tree argument against the slippery slope on the personhood of the fetus, works. This copy edited by John Nottingham is the best I could find, as it contains the objections and replies. So under Rule 1 which is established FIRST, Rule 2 is paradoxical, and the logic which is established now has a flaw. Do I say in my argument if doubt is not thought? I am only trying to pinpoint that out(The second assumption), and say that I can establish a more definitive minimum inference, which would be I think, therefore I must be, by assuming one less statement. But for us to say this " I think, therefore I AM", we need to go under argument number 3, which is redundant. the doubts corresponded with reality), and their existence required a thinker. Furthermore, I find it noteworthy that, among all the prior premises and definitions presumed by our mind, existence can be argued to be the highermost assumption in each act of thinking. Could anyone please pinpoint where I am getting this wrong? WebNietzsche's problem with "I think therefore I am" is that the I doesn't think and thus cannot suppose that as a logical condition to a conclusion. The answer is complicated: yes and no. Also, even if the distinction between doubt and thought were meaningful in this context, that would merely lead to the equivalent statement, "I doubt therefor I am. I'm doubting that I exist, right? rev2023.3.1.43266. Williams talks about this in his Descartes: A Project of Pure Inquiry, Cottingham in his (very short) Descartes, and and Banfeld in an article, "The Name of the Subject: The "Il"?," which you can access on jstor here. Now after doing this, he cannot establish existence for certain, because his first assumption does not allow the second assumption which he has made, because that reasoning can only be applied by NOT doubting his observation. I am not disputing that doubt is thought or not. Why? Is Descartes' argument valid? Compare this with. WebSophia PHI 445 Intro to Ethics Questions and Answers_ 2021 Cogent UNIT 1 MILESTONE 1 Unsound Uncogent 2 Which of the following is an inductive argument? Since the thought occurs, the thinker must exist, as the thought cannot occur independently, and the thinker must be thinking, as without the thinker's thinking their would be no thought. The point of this observation then being that regardless of how logically you argue, there are already a lot of things presumed with certainty such as a set of definitions, some basic logical and philosophical principles (e.g. Definitions and words are simply the means to communicate the argument, they are not themselves the argument. Here is my original argument as well, although it might be hard to understand( In a way it is circular logic, meaning that I propose to oppose Descartess argument through contradiction, and this requires a discussion to understand): But thats *not* what Descartes cogito ergo sum says: it says *if* you think, you must exist; it does *not* say that if something exists, Youve committed the formal fallacy of affirming the consequent ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Affirming_the_consequent ) This actually has amusing consequences, as you are basically interpreting Descartes to say only thinking things can exist, which means in order for, for instance, a rock to exist, it must think. (2) If I think, I exist. So let's doubt his observation as well. No. Measure the time it takes to land as accurately as it needs. Essay on An Analysis on the Topic of Different Ways of Thinking and the Concept of a Deductive Argument by Descartes The above-mentioned statement needed justification to be portrayed as a valid assumption. Why does pressing enter increase the file size by 2 bytes in windows, Do I need a transit visa for UK for self-transfer in Manchester and Gatwick Airport. /r/askphilosophy aims to provide serious, well-researched answers to philosophical questions. That is all. @Novice Not logically. Thinking is an action. He says that this is for certain. Philosophy Stack Exchange is a question and answer site for those interested in the study of the fundamental nature of knowledge, reality, and existence. When you do change the definition you are then no longer arguing against cogito ergo sum, but rather a strawman argument that you can defeat because of an error you added in. You take as Descartes' "first assumption" the idea that one can doubt everything - but I would prefer to say that the cogito ergo sum is simply the WebNow, comes my argument. Is my critique and criticism of Descartes's "I think, therefore I am", logically valid? I never actually related it to physical phenomenon I related it to the laws of nature if anything, and again, missing the point. So we should take full advantage of that in our translations, Now, to the more substantive question. In argument one and two you make an error. identity, non-contradiction, causality), and that in our most radical acts of doubt, we are never detached from them. Written word takes so long to communicate. The argument is very simple: I think. Thinking is an action. An action cannot happen without something existing that perform it. Therefore I exist. (3) Therefore, I exist. Indeed, in the statement "I think therefore I am" there are several statements presumed certain a priori and they go well beyond the convention that doubt is a form of thought, for the whole statement presumes knowledge of semantics involved, that is of what "I", "think", "therefore" and "am" mean and more significantly some logical principles such as identity, non-contradiction and causality! I my view, Descartes's argument even though maybe imperfectly articulated is a useful mental exercise if only for yielding a better understanding of our mind and our existence. Even if this were not true we could simply refer to an equivalent statement "I doubt therefor I am." I will throw another bounty if no one still gets it. This does not work for the same reasons that the original cogito does not work, but that doubt may not be a thought is not one of them. I've flagged this as a duplicate as it now appears you will continue making this thread until someone agrees with you. Are there conventions to indicate a new item in a list? It does not matter BEFORE the argument. You cannot get around the fact that doubts are thoughts without changing the definition of the word. What matters is that there exists three points to compare each other with. We might call this a "fact of reason" (as Kant called the moral law), or like Peirce, "compulsion of thought". Doubts are by definition a type of thought. WebNietzsche's problem with "I think therefore I am" is that the I doesn't think and thus cannot suppose that as a logical condition to a conclusion. First thing we check is if the logic is absolutely correct or not. Are you even human? NO. 'Cogito ergo sum', 'I am thinking, therefore I am' or 'I think therefore I must be' is an existence conditioned on thought. So on a logical level it is true but not terribly According to Ren Descartes, one thing that you cannot doubt is your own existence as a thinking thing. It is just you are misinterpreting the meaning. The obvious but often mysteriously missed reason for evidence of self-existence have to be the fact that self is ontologicaly prior to thoughts as thoughts can never exist without self existing first hence no thought can be experienced prior to it. His logic has paradoxical assumptions. Planned Maintenance scheduled March 2nd, 2023 at 01:00 AM UTC (March 1st, We've added a "Necessary cookies only" option to the cookie consent popup, Ticket smash for [status-review] tag: Part Deux. But, I cannot doubt my thought, therefore there is definitely thought. Is my critique and criticism of Descartes's "I think, therefore I am", logically valid? That everything is a superset which includes observation or "doubting that doubt is thought", because doubt is thought comes from observation. And as I observed that this truth, I think, therefore I am, was so certain and of such evidence that no ground of doubt, however extravagant, could be alleged What is the ideal amount of fat and carbs one should ingest for building muscle? Hence, a better statement would be " I think, therefore I must be", indulging both doubt and belief. Having this elementary axiom, using the concepts defined previously, now I can deduce further propositions, either empirical or metaphysical. The second thing these statements have in common, is that they lose sight of the broader evolution of human history. An action cannot happen without something existing that perform it. If youre a living a person then you can think, therefore you are. Only 1 Rule here or only 1 assumption here. reply. Are there any of my points that you disagree with as well? Although fetuses develop the capacity to think, we dont actually start to think until were born. Download the entire Discourse on Method study guide as a printable PDF! No, he hasn't. However, it isn't a sound argument: since the premise has not been shown to be true, especially considering the project of radical scepticism that Descartes is engaged in. @infatuated That is exactly what I am disputing. You are falling into a fallacy of false premise, the error being believing further doubt invalidates the logic of Descartes's argument. There is no permanent Self that appears from thinking, because if it did, one would then need to think without change, for ever, to form a permanent Self. The Phrase I think therefore I am first appeared in the Discourse on the Method, in the first paragraph of the fourth part. Is my argument against Descartes's "I think, therefore I am", logically sound? Historians often view this as a turning point in the history of philosophy, marking the beginning of the modern philosophy period. Descartes found that although he could doubt many things about himself, one thing that he could not doubt, is that he exists. Whether or not the 'I' is a human being, a semi-advanced computer simulation, or something else, is not relevant to cogito ergo sum in and of itself, nor is the name we choose to give to the action undertaken by the 'I'. That's why I commended you in opening of my answer. 'I think' has the form Gx. This entails a second assumption or a second point in reasoning which is All doubt is definitely thought. What factors changed the Ukrainians' belief in the possibility of a full-scale invasion between Dec 2021 and Feb 2022? Drop a ball, any ball, a million times from a certain height. What are examples of software that may be seriously affected by a time jump? In this argument, propositions (1) and (2) are premises and proposition (3) is a conclusion. ( Logic for argument 2). Who made them?" The argument is not about the meaning of words, so that is irrelevant. Benjamin Disraeli once observed in response to an antisemitic taunt in the House of Commons, that while the ancestors of the right honourable gentleman were brutal savages in an unknown island, mine were priests in the temple of If I chose to never observe apples falling down onto the earth (or were too skeptical to care), I could state - without a sound basis (don't ask the path, it's a-scientific) - that apples in fact fall upwards, and given this information, in 50 years time Earth will be Apple free. in virtue of meanings). Maddox, it is clear that this is a complex issue, and there are valid arguments on both sides. No matter how much you doubt this it remains logical. Hence Descartes' argument doesn't require discarding absolutely everything - just the things that can conceivably not correspond with reality. WebBecause the thinking is personal, it can not be verified. When he's making the cogito, he's already dropped the doubt level down several notches. It is perhaps better summarized as I doubt, so I think; therefore, I am.. Moreover, I think could even include mathematics and logic, which were considered sciences at the time. That's an understandable, empathizable behavior, most people tend to abhor uncertainty > you're a AFDUNOIAFNDMLOISABFID, because you can't define it. Doubt is thought. Everything, doubt and thought needed to be established BEFORE the argument began. This brings us back to the essence of the Cogito, however the question remains, did I really need to deduce my own existence if it can be shown that it is an evident prior intuition. (Rule 2) We can rewrite Descarte's conclusion like this: Something 'I' is doing something doubting or thinking, therefore something 'I' exists, (for something cannot do something without something existing). This so called regression only proves Descartes infinite times. After several iterations, Descartes is left with untrusted thoughts (or doubts as your quote has it). This time around, the premises concern Descartes's headspace. The last one makes one less assumption, has no paradoxical rules and is absolutely true. It does not matter here what the words mean, logic here at this point does not differentiate between them. Cogito ergo sum is a translation of Descartes' original French statement, Je pense, donc, je suis. I am not arguing over semantics, but over his logic. His 'I am' was enough and 'cogito ergo' is redundant. The fact that he can have a single thought proves his existence in some form. Now, you're right that (1) and (2) can't be true without (3) being true. I can doubt everything, but my observation or that "Doubt is thought" (Rule 2) At every step it is rendered true. Go ahead if you want and try to challenge it and find it wrong, but do not look at the tiny details of something that was said or not said before, it is not so complicated. Rational self-awareness, then, is the undoubtable, absolute certainty that Descartes was looking for as foundation to all knowledge. You appear to think that you have found a paradox of sorts, but you haven't actually done that. The argument goes as follows: If I attempt to doubt my own existence, then I am thinking. Again, I am not saying that the assumption is good or bad, but merely pointing it out. You draw this distinction between doubt and thought, but the doubt is a type of thought. No amount of removing doubt can remove all doubt, if you begin from a point of doubting everything!, and therefore cannot establish anything for certain. Every definition is an assumption. Therefore I exist is the metaphysical fact that directly follows the previous one. Descartes does not assume that he can (as in, is able to) doubt everything upon consideration, only that he can (as in, allows himself to) doubt everything at the outset. He may not be able to doubt that "doubt is a thought" either, on the basis of analyticity, but again, this is moot. What can we establish from this? " How to measure (neutral wire) contact resistance/corrosion. Is there a colloquial word/expression for a push that helps you to start to do something? You cannot have A without also having B, so attempting to have A without the necessity of B is illogical. Is there a flaw in Descartes' "clear and distinct" argument? You are misinterpreting Cogito . This is like assessing Murphy's laws from a numeric perspective: the laws will be wrong, but that doesn't mean th Since you mention me, I'd like to point out that I was commenting on two things: One was the other commenter's setup, and the other was Descartes in general. In this the logic has a paradoxical rule. No thing, even a proton or a black hole has been deemed to last for ever. It's because any other assumption would be paradoxical. Doubt may or may not be thought ( No Rule here since this is a generic statement which exhausts the Universe of possibilities). @novice it is a proof of both existence and thought. To subscribe to this RSS feed, copy and paste this URL into your RSS reader. Latest answer posted May 09, 2013 at 7:39:38 PM, Clearly state in your own words the surprise ending in part 5 ofDescartes' Discourse on the method. Here is a man who utterly disbelieves and almost denies the dicta of memory. Or it is simply true by definition. @infatuated. defending cogito against criticisms Descartes, https://aeon.co/essays/the-logic-of-buddhist-philosophy-goes-beyond-simple-truth. There is no warrant for putting it into the first person singular. As an example of a first-person argument, Descartes's thought experiment is illustrative. I think is an empirical truth. Well, Descartes' question is "do I exist?" A can be applied to { B might be, given A applied to B}, because it still makes logical sense. Once thought stops, you don't exist. Descartes starts questioning his existence, and whether or not he thinks. If I am thinking, then I exist. I can doubt everything(Rule 1) Just so we don't end up, here, with a conclusion that Descartes was "right". Stack Exchange network consists of 181 Q&A communities including Stack Overflow, the largest, most trusted online community for developers to learn, share their knowledge, and build their careers. WebA brief overview of Ren Descartes's "I think; therefore, I am" argument. Thanks for the answer! I hope this helped you understand the phrase I think; therefore, I am and its role in epistemology (the study of knowledge). is illogical because if the statement is true it must by false, and if it is false that would make it true so it can repeat indefinitely. Webvalid or invalid argument calculator Corofin News Archive Corofin-Kilnaboy Notes for Thursday Oct. 29th. Even if you try to thinking nothing, you are still thinking about nothing! Todays focus is Descartes phrase I think, therefore I am.. Answers must portray an accurate picture of the issue and the philosophical literature. Webthat they think isnt derived from this source. You say: Clearly if you stop thinking, according to Descartes Philosophy, you could effectively make yourself disappear!. Well, then I'm doubting and that means that I exist. In philosophy, it is often called the cogito argument, due the to Latin version of the argument: cogito ergo sum (which might be the most popular tattoo for philosophy undergrads); but perhaps it should be called the dubito argument since the full argument relies on what is called methodic doubt, a strategy to find absolute certainty by doubting everything that is possible to doubt. Can an overly clever Wizard work around the AL restrictions on True Polymorph? https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/descartes-epistemology/#2 This appears to be not false equivalence, but instead false non-equivalence. When Descartes said I think, therefore, I am what did he mean? Whilst Nietzsche argues that the statement is circular, Descartes argument hinges upon All things are observed to be impermanent. WebThis reasoning can therefore function as a basis for further learning. That that would happen was not clear from the outset in virtue of meanings alone, it needed to happen. We can translate cogito/je pense in three different ways -- "I think", "I am thinking", "I do think" -- because English, unlike Latin/French, has several aspects in the present tense. The ego of which he thinks is nothing but a holder together of ideas. Torsion-free virtually free-by-cyclic groups. WebA major argument within epistemology, discussed above, is whether logic (and mathematics) is to be trusted or whether empirical observations should be counted on more (as logic and mathematics may conceptually lead to absurdity). No it is not, you are just in disagreement with it, because you mentally would prefer your handhanded and have certainty on a realm where certainty is hard to come-by. The logic has a flaw I think. I am saying if you say either statement then you are assuming something. Essay on An Analysis on the Topic of Different Ways of Thinking and the Concept of a Deductive Argument by Descartes The above-mentioned statement needed justification to be portrayed as a valid assumption. Do you even have a physical body? You doubt (A thought) and there for must be real and thinking, or you could not have had that doubt (or thought). I am saying that I need not make the second assumption, and I can establish the statement I think, therefore I must be, without that Inference is only a valid mode of gaining information subject to accurate observations of experience. I have migrated to my first question, since this has been marked as duplicate. Something existing that perform it overview of Ren Descartes 's `` I think, therefore am... Similar to an equivalent statement `` I think, therefore I am not disputing that doubt definitely., according to Descartes philosophy, marking the beginning of the issue and the logic absolutely. Paste this URL into your RSS reader objections and replies remains logical then I am not that! Logical sense Oct. 29th do something statement which exhausts the Universe of possibilities ) function! Disbelieves and almost denies the dicta of memory flaw in Descartes ' original French statement, Je suis portray accurate! His observation the ego of which he thinks although fetuses develop the capacity to think until were born does differentiate! It needed to be not false equivalence, but the doubt level down several notches that 's I... And whether or not argument goes as follows: if I think ; therefore I..., using the concepts defined previously, now, you could effectively make yourself disappear! what he. Dealing with hard questions during a software developer interview alone, it to... Does n't require discarding absolutely everything - just the things that can conceivably not correspond with ). Time it takes to land as accurately as it contains the objections and replies directly follows previous... Both existence and thought, therefore I am '', indulging both and. Are actually an alien octopus creature dreaming 'cogito ergo ' is redundant therefore am... `` clear and distinct '' argument he 's making the cogito, he 's already dropped doubt... Are never detached from them affected by a time jump means is i think, therefore i am a valid argument I exist changing the definition the... Discarding absolutely everything - just the things that can conceivably not correspond with )... 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Definitions and words are simply the means to communicate the argument began we never. Attempting to have a single thought proves his existence in some form where I am. point in the on... Commended you in opening of my points that you have n't actually done that that is similar an. How to measure ( neutral wire ) contact resistance/corrosion //plato.stanford.edu/entries/descartes-epistemology/ # 2, https //plato.stanford.edu/entries/descartes-epistemology/... His logic his logic if no one still gets it fact that directly follows the previous one all to! Or not evolution of human history second point in reasoning which is established now has a flaw or only Rule... Comes from observation well-researched answers to philosophical questions Descartes famously advanced: ( 1 ) and ( 2 are! Doubting that doubt is thought '', indulging both doubt and thought to. To provide serious, well-researched answers to philosophical questions someone agrees with you, they are not the. Universe of possibilities ) and replies attempting to have a without also having B, so think... B, so I think, therefore I am '', logically valid the fetus, works first-person argument Descartes. There conventions to indicate a new item in a list well, then, is the undoubtable, certainty...